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prov·o·ca·tion - something that provokes, arouses, or stimulates. pant - to long eagerly; yearn. a collection of thoughts intended to provoke and inspire. these posts are hoping to encourage people to think, especially Christians, and pant even harder for the waterbrooks of the Lord. If you are not a believer in Christ Jesus, I welcome your perspective and encourage your investigation on these matters.

Monday, August 01, 2005

Something for Johnny Hunt and His Amen-ers

Irksome is one of Johnny's favorite words I suppose. I have seen it and heard it in some of his sermons, especially the one called "Giving Your Best to the Master" based on the text in Malachi 1. In that text is the theme question God gives in the book of Malachi. It is - "Where's My honor?" It appears that Hunt's attack on God's election and sovereignty is one that should be be concluded with the divine statement, "Where's My honor?" Where is God in salvation? Where is God's glory in salvation? Where is God's work in salvation? It appears that Johnny Hunt and his dwindling amen-ers may not even subscribe to the Baptist Faith and Message (2000). For a helpful explanation on the particular section of grace and election, let me refer you to Baptist Press' article by Tom Nettles, who by the way has written an excellent book on the Baptist Faith and Doctrines of Grace (called By His Grace and For His Glory: A Historical, Theological and Practical Study of the Doctrines of Grace in Baptist Life). If as Baptist we should look for common ground, should we not first look at our own confession? (from the Baptist Faith and Message 2000) IV. Salvation Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man, and is offered freely to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, who by His own blood obtained eternal redemption for the believer. In its broadest sense salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification. There is no salvation apart from personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord. A. Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace. Repentance is a genuine turning from sin toward God. Faith is the acceptance of Jesus Christ and commitment of the entire personality to Him as Lord and Saviour. B. Justification is God's gracious and full acquittal upon principles of His righteousness of all sinners who repent and believe in Christ. Justification brings the believer unto a relationship of peace and favor with God. C. Sanctification is the experience, beginning in regeneration, by which the believer is set apart to God's purposes, and is enabled to progress toward moral and spiritual maturity through the presence and power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in him. Growth in grace should continue throughout the regenerate person's life. D. Glorification is the culmination of salvation and is the final blessed and abiding state of the redeemed. Genesis 3:15; Exodus 3:14-17; 6:2-8; Matthew 1:21; 4:17; 16:21-26; 27:22-28:6; Luke 1:68-69; 2:28-32; John 1:11-14,29; 3:3-21,36; 5:24; 10:9,28-29; 15:1-16; 17:17; Acts 2:21; 4:12; 15:11; 16:30-31; 17:30-31; 20:32; Romans 1:16-18; 2:4; 3:23-25; 4:3ff.; 5:8-10; 6:1-23; 8:1-18,29-39; 10:9-10,13; 13:11-14; 1 Corinthians 1:18,30; 6:19-20; 15:10; 2 Corinthians 5:17-20; Galatians 2:20; 3:13; 5:22-25; 6:15; Ephesians 1:7; 2:8-22; 4:11-16; Philippians 2:12-13; Colossians 1:9-22; 3:1ff.; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; 2 Timothy 1:12; Titus 2:11-14; Hebrews 2:1-3; 5:8-9; 9:24-28; 11:1-12:8,14; James 2:14-26; 1 Peter 1:2-23; 1 John 1:6-2:11; Revelation 3:20; 21:1-22:5. V. God's Purpose of Grace Election is the gracious purpose of God, according to which He regenerates, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies sinners. It is consistent with the free agency of man, and comprehends all the means in connection with the end. It is the glorious display of God's sovereign goodness, and is infinitely wise, holy, and unchangeable. It excludes boasting and promotes humility. All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end. Believers may fall into sin through neglect and temptation, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, and bring reproach on the cause of Christ and temporal judgments on themselves; yet they shall be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation. Genesis 12:1-3; Exodus 19:5-8; 1 Samuel 8:4-7,19-22; Isaiah 5:1-7; Jeremiah 31:31ff.; Matthew 16:18-19; 21:28-45; 24:22,31; 25:34; Luke 1:68-79; 2:29-32; 19:41-44; 24:44-48; John 1:12-14; 3:16; 5:24; 6:44-45,65; 10:27-29; 15:16; 17:6,12,17-18; Acts 20:32; Romans 5:9-10; 8:28-39; 10:12-15; 11:5-7,26-36; 1 Corinthians 1:1-2; 15:24-28; Ephesians 1:4-23; 2:1-10; 3:1-11; Colossians 1:12-14; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; 2 Timothy 1:12; 2:10,19; Hebrews 11:39–12:2; James 1:12; 1 Peter 1:2-5,13; 2:4-10; 1 John 1:7-9; 2:19; 3:2. I find his comments quite irksome, especially given the fact that every time I hear him, I hear more of an agenda and less of the Bible. Maybe the book What Love Is This? by Dave Hunt ( I would hyperlink it, but no one carries it anymore) has got the best of him. But the bottom line I think should clearly be stated from the mouth of Him who has brought "so great a salvation" . . .

"WHERE'S MY HONOR?"

13 Comments:

Blogger joe said...

after i sat and listened to one of his sermons on christians and drinking and hearing him say, "i'd like to appear so holy that no one would ever even think about offering me a drink..." i finally threw the cd out the window.

8/01/2005 02:16:00 PM

 
Blogger Timmy said...

I think Johnny Hunt is a great preacher but not necessarily a good theologian. You are right in the sense that Arminians tend to focus on themselves (and their performance) over the beauty of Christ and his grace. The buzz words usually have something to do with "appearance" or "perception".
It would be nice if Johnny Hunt and others who have incredible influence over other preacher boy's would challenge them to "search the Scriptures" rather than pumping adrenaline into their veins.

8/01/2005 03:18:00 PM

 
Blogger Nathan White said...

Great post. If you havent yet been to elbourne.org, go there and check out the post on Hunt. It will certainly open some eyes...

SDG

8/02/2005 06:37:00 PM

 
Blogger Timmy said...

I have read the post and most of the responses. I think that the author did a fair and level-headed job on the post. As a matter of fact, it was his post that challenged me to look futher into Johnny Hunt's dealings with election. I have known about it for along time (mutual relations), but have never been in a situation where I could speak openly on the matter. Thanks for the encouragement and for dropping in!

8/03/2005 04:59:00 AM

 
Blogger Nathan White said...

Well don't I feel stupid, you have Elbourne on your blogroll. Sorry I didn't notice!

Anyway, I was also impressed with the author, and in light of Hunt singling me out I have been conversing back and forth with him about my reply back. I was a little too harsh on Johnny in my comments; this coupled with him actually knowing me fueled his response back. I plan to address that and reaffirm his error on the doctrines of grace and how it permeates his ministry as well. But anyway, I wanted to drop you this line and mention that you should get your hands on the sermon I referenced in my comments on elbourne.org. Hunt really went off on Calvinism and it is a must hear…

You can find them at http://www.itsanewdayonline.com/

SDG

8/03/2005 05:20:00 PM

 
Blogger Timmy said...

Nathan,
I should have mentioned my blogroll on the side. I know there is a bunch of stuff over there, and it can easily be overlooked.
Anyway, are you telling me that you have been responding back and forth with Johnny Hunt as a result of this recent development? If so, are his responses public (i.e. on your blog or someone elses)? I will try to get my hands on those sermons. I know which ones you are talking about (2 Peter 1:9-10 on "Security and Assurance").
I believe Hunt knows me, but we do not have any correspondence. You know, one thing I have realized is that preachers today of both big and small churches don't want to be held accountable for their dcotrnes, as to whether than can biblically supported or not. To do so to them would be an act of insubordination and subject you to ecclesiastical scorn. It appears that in most cases it is only a monologue, not a dialogue, and the only acceptable response from a hearer is a hearty "Amen". I don't see how this blind followship can be beneficial to spiritual growth, and I think people are reazling this in increasing numbers.
It is easy to be intimated and pressured by those who carry much more clout; yet all of us are mere men. I have had to realize this. As Martin Luther, who displayed grace, humilty, and candor as well as conviction, boldnes,and courage, we must have our consciences held captive by the Word of God alone. And if this be so, let us take our stand. We can do no other. God help us . . .

8/03/2005 09:15:00 PM

 
Blogger Nathan White said...

If you go to elbourne.org and read the comments below the original article, you will see me place my two cents on Hunt’s ministry, and then further down Mr. Hunt himself replies back and mentions me by name. Mr. Hunt knows me and my family because we attended his church for 10 years. Not only that, but because of the high respect and love my wife and I have for him, he wed us in October of last year. However, I made some pretty harsh comments about his ministry on elbourne and things aren’t too rosy with us at this time. Friends and family members (none know me personally) of Mr. Hunt have also been sending my very harsh emails. Other than that blog I have no personal correspondence with Mr. Hunt.

I am sure blessed by the second half of your comment above. For you are dead on, there seems to be no accountability to the scriptures when mega-church pastors are bringing in the people. It doesn’t seem to matter what the preacher says as long as he says it with emotion it gets an ‘Amen’. But what Hunt's defenders won't deal with is what he said! They have been pounding in my head how great and loving he is instead of what he said in the pulpit. They believe that because of the man's love and devotion to people, that he is above error.

I have been attacked for my comments about Mr. Hunt’s church and it has devastated me. My wife is upset, I am upset, and yet I am so thankful that Mr. Hunt heard what I had to say. And I can only pray that the Lord convicts his heart. I wasn’t as graceful as I should have been, but I have consulted the elders of my church and I have been instructed to stand firm. Your right, Luther was a beautiful example of humility, boldness etc… under fire. And the consequences he faced (death) are much worse than I face (being disliked). We can learn a lot from that example.

SDG

8/04/2005 10:47:00 AM

 
Blogger Timmy said...

Nathan,
I can sympathize with you on the devastation and hurt you feel when it gets personal and people start attacking you instead of addressing the issue. This has happened to me here on my own blog (see the Via Negativa post). After that time, I took almost two weeks without posting anything because no one was saying about my post or its content, but only pointing fingers at me.
I took the time to make a post on Locust and Wild Honey a while ago. Let me know what you think about it. I hope to be of some encouragement to you during this time. I know it's difficult, especially on your wife and family. When I saw the hurt on my wife's face, I knew that this had become a very bad thing. I even considered quitting blogging period or creating another one and starting all over. I decided to keep it and let it be, because this is how we learn and grow from our experiences. I know that the Lord will grow you during this time.
And by the way, nothing meaningful or noteworthy was done without opposition and hurt and even loss. If we listen to the voices of the past who have fought and even given their lives for these truths, the anthem would be for us, "Let God be true and every man a liar." Press on with humility and grace. In the meantime, I will be praying for you.

8/04/2005 03:05:00 PM

 
Blogger Nathan White said...

Timmy,

Thanks for the prayers and the kind words; I really benefited by the encouragement of yourself and others.

You also had some great things to say in your posts on Elbourne. You and others said enough to where I didnt have to write too much more in my reply. Thankfully I was able to keep it short because most of the issues were covered by you guys.

You said: "Mr. Hunt says that he was with Mr. White when he “was in his sin”, and he shares how he has loved and taken interest in him. Along those same lines, if we believe Mr. Hunt is in error in his theology and using platforms and pulpits to purport errant theology, is it not loving to follow his example and take an interest in Mr. Hunt?"

That’s what confused me. Hunt stood by his statements, which would imply that he did NOT think he was in sin, therefore why would he care that an open discussion was being made of his comments? If he’s clearly not wrong, why did he object to elbourne’s discussion?

Also, Hunt objected to elbourne playing a 54 second clip of a 40 minute message, and then later said he stood by what he said. That doesn’t make sense either, for why would Hunt try to make it seem like he was taken out of context and then claim he stood by what he said? Clearly he was not saying that elbourne misunderstood him.

You said:"I am glad that you pointed out and clarified the Matthew 18 deal. Clearly, there is no sin involved here"

I’m going to have to lovingly disagree here, and I actually kind of mention this in my direct reply to Mr. Hunt. I believe that he isn’t immature when it comes to the doctrines of grace, but rather ignorant. He knows what the Bible says, he just chooses tradition over the ‘unloving’ Calvinism. In the Nov 2002 sermon I referenced Hunt mocks Calvinism for 2 hours. But anyway, I’m in no position to demand repentance from Johnny, and I should’ve left that part out of my original comments. However, any error of the scriptures being proclaimed publicly, while the Bible clearly teaches otherwise, should be a matter of obedience/sin unless immaturity or unfamiliarity of the Word is present. In my reply to Johnny I was very polite, but I did not take away the sting of conviction. I tried to make it clear what the true issues were.

You said:"Regardless of whether we are Reformed or not, in Christ we are one."

Amen to that. And it upsets me that sometimes people miss that when free will doctrine is openly criticized.

You said:"When I saw the hurt on my wife's face, I knew that this had become a very bad thing. I even considered quitting blogging period or creating another one and starting all over."

Same here. I haven’t updated my blog since this whole incident. And my wife is still upset about it. But I’ve been studying a lot on this issue lately and I have been encouraged by Hebrews 12:14 –

“Pursue peace with all men and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.”

Peace is directly connected to holy living. Only when we confront sin with righteousness is true peace obtained. Biblically speaking, where there is peace there is righteousness, purity, and holiness. If we try to bring true harmony by compromising righteousness, we forfeit real peace and real righteousness.

I think I might blog about this later this week. But in the meantime, look out for my reply to Hunt on elbourne, as I’m going to post it tonight.

(sorry for such a long post)

SDG

8/08/2005 12:00:00 PM

 
Blogger Timmy said...

Nathan,

I am glad that you have found encouragement from the Scriptures and others in the Body. As far as the sermons from 2002 by Johnny Hunt, I have not listened to them, and were I to do so, would probably change the degree of latitude to his doctrinal inconsistency. If Hunt intentionally misrepresents Scripture and the Lord's work in salvation, then his teaching should be exposed and demand fidelity toward Scriptures as our sole authority.
You have a point concerning the sin issue (not as a matter of ignorance but intellectual and theological dishonesty). At least if he differs, he should state so from a clear hermeneutic and exegesis of biblical texts, not in a militant manner of dogmatism.
I think Hunt should give an account for what he believes about election and the doctrines of grace, and without the worn-out talking points from Dave Hunt or Norman Geisler. Their arguments are an old hat now for Arminians and have been refuted many times, especially by James White. Maybe their best defense is no defense at all.
Anyway. I will look forward to hearing from you on Elbourne.
By the way, are you still receving flack from folks about the earlier post? I read the comment by "Star Lee", who I assume knows you and is a member of Woodstock.
Have you looked at the bibliography sources in the above post? Have you ready any? Any others that you would recommend?

8/08/2005 07:38:00 PM

 
Blogger Nathan White said...

Timmy said:“At least if he differs, he should state so from a clear hermeneutic and exegesis of biblical texts, not in a militant manner of dogmatism.”

Exactly. We should not demand that others thinks exactly like we think, but rather that others shows each questionable position from the scriptures, as opposed to ‘off the cuff’ dogmatism which only confuses.

Timmy said:"I think Hunt should give an account for what he believes about election and the doctrines of grace, and without the worn-out talking points from Dave Hunt"

Yeah that might be a problem. The Nov 2002 sermon sounds like Johnny read Dave Hunt’s WLIT? and then preached a sermon 10 minutes later. It was like reading the book all over again for me…Talk about nauseating! Ad hominen times 2!

Star Lee is somebody who I know of, but I don’t believe she knows me personally. By her wording I don’t think she was writing as somebody who knows me. But I could be wrong, she might know me, for my wife’s Mom and Star are good friends. But nevertheless, I was really upset to see her comments. The other emails have basically stopped coming, but I’m sure they will start again once I repost. I’m not upset at others disagreeing with me, I’m upset that none of them have approached me with a desire for reconciliation. Its all harsh words, and I have written back each one and requested forgiveness. I haven’t gotten any replies back.

I have read many of the books you listed above, and can’t think of much I’d add to them. I’d venture to say that in this society, with the popular attacks on Calvinism coming from those such as the Geisler perspective, that White’s Potters Freedom covers the bases very well. Ian’s Spurgeon controversy is also great stuff, as is Bianchi, Ryle, Edwards, Grudem, Owen and Luther -some of my favorites. One that I haven’t checked out yet that I’d like to is Hodge’s Systematic Theology. Also, I haven’t finished it yet, but Robert Reymond’s Systematic Theology is really good so far, I would definitely recommend that.

8/09/2005 12:10:00 PM

 
Blogger Jameson said...

Nathan and Timmy,
You guys say some good stuff on here. You talk about loving God, being encouraged by scripture, and being part of the Body of Christ. Timmy, quoting directly from your side bar, "Trusting God. Treasuring Christ. Triumphing the Gospel. That's my goal, by God's grace, driven by His pleasure and intended for His glory." That is awesome. I think you guys may have lost your focus. Your whole blog is running down Johnny Hunt and the Bible says in Eph. 4:29, "Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen." and also in verse 15 and 16 of that same chapter is says, "Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into Him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From Him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself upon love, as each part does its work." You need to get your focus off of trashing our fellow brother in Christ and get it back on Christ. All you need to worry about is "each part does its work." I am not attacking you personally, but I think this is a problem for the church universally. We need to get our focus of what everyone else is doing and back on what Christ called us to do.

9/21/2006 10:13:00 AM

 
Blogger patrick said...

The Lord's role in salvation is offering himself as a sacrifice on the cross. (Rom. 5:8) The Holy Spirit nudges us toward the cross through conviction through the law, but it is entirely our decision, there are no pre-elected. (Mat. 22:14 (read in context))Yes, the Lord wants us all to go to heaven, (1 Tim. 2:4) but he gave us free will to choose for ourselves. (Gen. 1:27) And if you want something to find common ground on stop wasting time bickering with each other and preach the TRUE BIBLE the WHOLE BIBLE and NOTHING BUT THE BIBLE and reach others for Christ. (Acts 1:8) Oh by the way I’m one of those “dwindling amen-ers” and I go to FBCW and I’m proud that my Pastor preaches the word faithfully week after week, month after month, year after year, and through the fiery arrows of Satan that you inadvertently fire.

6/27/2007 11:34:00 PM

 

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