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prov·o·ca·tion - something that provokes, arouses, or stimulates. pant - to long eagerly; yearn. a collection of thoughts intended to provoke and inspire. these posts are hoping to encourage people to think, especially Christians, and pant even harder for the waterbrooks of the Lord. If you are not a believer in Christ Jesus, I welcome your perspective and encourage your investigation on these matters.

Monday, May 09, 2005

Random Stuff for Week of 5/9-5/16

* As you may have already noticed, I have inserted a weekly poll for all you who check out P&P. Please, if you have the time, provide your input for the question asked weekly. Your input is greatly appreciated. * Paul Washer is a young pastor and founder of Heartcry Missionary Society. He has some very provoking sermons that have stimulated much thought in my mind. Some are free to download at the following link. I encourage you to check them out: http://www.heartcrymissionary.com/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownload&cid=12 * Many of you are aware of the gender-neutral translations that have recently been coming out. Wayne Grudem, along with Vern Poythress, has written a book called The TNIV and the Gender-Neutral Bible Controversy. It is a lengthy book (528 pages) that explains proper translation, how we received our English translations, and most importantly why the TNIV (Today's New International Version) is wrong. If you or someone you know is interested on Bible translation or owns a TNIV Bible, then this would be a relevant read. It is published by Broadman & Holman in 2004. You can find it for $15.74 @ BAMM.com. * If any of you are interested in doing a book study together with a group or would like to have a good book to give away to some non-Christian friends, I encourage you to check the Don't Waste Your Life website. I have recently purchased a bulk of 25 to give to my unbelieving friends @ work and those who will come to my Bible Study there in the cafeteria. I am using it as a discussion starter and introduce them to the Christian faith. The only stipulation to the bulk buying is that you give them away at no charge. It is a great deal. You should check it out. A link to this is the following: http://www.desiringgod.org/news_events/promos/2005_dwyl_outreach.html


Anonymous Andy Thompson said...

Timmy, is it your opinion that the TNIV is an inaccurate translation and therefore unsuitable for use by evangelical Christians?

5/10/2005 01:58:00 PM

Blogger Timmy said...

Absolutely. The TNIV is a typical modern-day attempt to conform Scriptures to the age in which we live. Plain and simple, when you remove the Fatherhood of God and maculinity of Christ, then you have a God contrary to his self-disclosure. Covenantally, He is Father and Lord. We have no right to redefine God in abstract generalities with contemporary assumptions to cater to the whims and ideological asertions of our day. Honesty, I cannot articulate in every detail why the TNIV is so dangerous, but the book aforementioned accomplishes that. I look forward to reading it and having a more nuanced understanding of the debate.
In case you did not know, one of my goals is to eventually work in Bible translation, putting it into other langauges yet to be in print, so I am passionate about this subject.
I have a copy of the TNIV, but I have it for research purposes (refuting it) and not for study. Actually, it was given to me at a Youth Specialties Youth Workers Conference (surprise, surprise) a couple of years ago. Anyway, YES it is NOT suitable for evangelicals or for any Christians for that matter. The only recommendation I have for the TNIV is for the purpose of knowing what it says that Christians may be knowledgable of the gender-neutral controversy going on today.

5/10/2005 08:44:00 PM

Anonymous Andy Thompson said...

Concerning the Fatherhood of God and the masculinity of Christ -- can you point me to some examples of these being removed in the TNIV?

I went to the NYWC last year and I've worked with YS before. I sense that you don't like YS, but if I'm wrong, forgive me. I just know what YS has done for thousands of youth workers, including me.

I would really like (and I'm not trying to launch a debate or attack on you) to know of some specific reasons that you are so hard-lined against the TNIV.

I can see glimpses of both sides of this issue. But simply to lump the TNIV in with a post-modern culture that seeks to throw out gender/sex-based identitity altogether on the basis of what appears to be an attempt on Zondervan's/IBS' part to update the language of their translation to compensate for the evolution of today's English would, in my opinion, be a mistake.

5/12/2005 04:15:00 PM

Blogger Timmy said...

First, I would say to check out the book refeerenced above. Second, you can check out this links:
1. http://www.desiringgod.org/library/theological_qa/reading_study/tniv.html
2. http://www.no-tniv.com/statement.html
4. http://www.no-tniv.com/articles/hebrews12_response.html
5. http://www.cbmw.org/tniv/
6. http://www.cbmw.org/tniv/articles_tniv/2005_0511_article_translation_grudem.php
7. http://www.cbmw.org/tniv/articles_tniv/2005_0323_article_other.php
8. http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/011/37.37.html
9. http://www.bpnews.org/bpnews.asp?ID=13461
10. http://www.sbcannualmeeting.net/sbc02/resolutions/sbcresolution.asp?ID=4

That's some links for starters. Conerning YS, well, I think it serves a good purpose. I enjoyed for the most part my time at the conference. I must say, however, that YS is a dangerous ministry, purporting modern-day liberations through the "Emergent Movement" (old-school Protestant Liberalism made over with a Go-Tee) and suspect speakers headlining their convention. Concerning the up-to-date attempt claim by the TNIV, well, this is a gloss job, an attempt to spiritualize an ulterior agenda. Furthermore, it is apparent that most evangelicals have picked up on this, given the fact that you cannot find this Bible in most bookstores, supported by most denominations, and even recanted by some who used to support it.
I would encourage you to check out the site on Center of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood and NO-TNIV to see more info that you requested.
I would make this advisement as well: Just because a ministry/organization helps you doesn't legitimize them. I can testify that I have concluded at given moments in my life there were organizations/authors who I thought helped me only to find out that it hanicapped me in the end. There is more at stake than an up-to-date version of the Bible with the TNIV. I think the evidence will prove that. I ADVISE EVERYONE WITH THE STERNEST ADMONITION TO BEWARE OF THE TNIV and challenge my fellow youth ministers to ingestigate Youth Specialties concerning biblical fidelity and evangelical orthodoxy.

5/12/2005 06:18:00 PM

Anonymous Andy Thompson said...

Timmy, thanks for the links -- but I've read most of those. I was wanting your opinions and thoughts. But I guess I'm not going to get that.

The only bookstore I haven't been able to find the TNIV in is Lifeway, and that's due to the affiliation with the SBC.

And as far as YS is concerned, I think you are making a broad-stroked assumption based on the words, or perhaps actions, of a select few people. I've been a part of the YS family/community for some time now, I've had the honor of ministering with YS and to me, to say that they are a "dangerous ministry" is simply without foundation.

Besides, YS is no longer affiliated with Emergent.

Thanks your time.

5/12/2005 10:01:00 PM

Blogger Timmy said...

Andy, than's for correcting me on the broken affiliation of YS with Emergent. I did not know that. As far as my comments, you can get that, and I would be happy to share them with you (I have already in broad strokes). I still believe YS is dangerous because of its heavy influence on youth ministers, many of whom are not aware of their stance on certain doctrinal issues, their ecumenical and somes liberal approach to theology (hence the Emergent affiliation), and the propogation of Chrisian sub-culture and pop-Christianity. I respect the fact that you worked closely with the YS family, and I admired Mike Yaconelli (is that how you spell his name?) and his generous heart. And no, not every program or organization is going to be "perfect", but I believe that is necessary to align with those who best represent Jesus and Scripture. While there are areas clearly where YS does that, I think the otherwise can be said as well. Personally, I think youth ministry all together needs an overhaul because we are putting our students in a sub-culture they were never intended to be. You may think that my convictions are without foundation, but I believe I can stand on what my eyes have seen, my ears have heard, and what my gleanings have become over the past four years. They are great people, no doubt, and I don't doubt their character and credibility or integrity, I am just heavily concerned about the programming and driving focus.

5/16/2005 11:44:00 AM


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